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Forced responses: Mar 2021 « RealClimate

Killian says:

34 mike says:
5 Mar 2021 at 5:05 AM

at Zebra 30: I don’t think it makes sense to talk about the Kogi as landowners because I don’t think they subscribe to your sense that land can be owned. To own something for you and me suggests we are free and entitled to use the owned item as we see fit. I don’t think the Kogi view the land that you think they own as theirs to use and change as they see fit.

Of course they do, mike. They don’t have individual ownership, but they definitely have family control of sections of their land and group management, via an egalitarian elite (much like the landed men-only Greek and early American systems less the private ownership.)

So, while a single person has no actual ownership of a parcel of land, as a group, they have full control of their space.

The difference is their management of it, like all intact indigenous, is bound up in a vast knowedge of how their environment functions. Certainly there is some mysticism bound up in it so that they have trouble articulating clear mechanisms, but as you watch and read more of what they have to say those become clearer. Their knowledge is incredible. They get things right that science has only in this very late modern era begun to relearn. This is why all over the planet we see more and more scientists recognizing they need to incorporate this deeper knowledge of the land and leart to be… younger brothers/sisters.

It reminds me of the discovery of the dangers of the Juan de Fuca plate and related issues along the northwest US and southwest Canadian coasts where indigenous oral traditions talked of things the scientists thought were just stories but were found to be absolutely accurate histories that revealed the potential and past incidences of massive quakes and tsunamis in that area.

I am not sure I have a reasonable grasp of the Kogi culture based on a couple of articles and one documentary, but it appears that historically, the Kogi have retreated to the mountains to avoid conflict and subjugation.

Yes. To call that privilege and equal in any way to a rich gatd community is extremely offensive. And, yes, racist. Zebra is welcome to explain and walk that back, but until then, it is what it is. As Maya Angelou advised: “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.”

It is also suggested that they don’t experience a lot of interpersonal violence within their own community. It appears that they have a subtle and deep philosophy about ecology and environmental protection that is fascinating, impressive and remarkable.

Yes, and the (relative) lack of violence is rooted in this, particularly WRT men towards women. I say relative because you don’t have a rule against something that doesn’t or never has existed; there must be a reason for the rule. Women are considered inherently connected with The Mother, so any violence against them would, I assume, be seen as violence against the Mother.

I think it is a real shame that they are no longer safe and secure in the high elevation mountain retreat that offered them protection in the past. Humans who have a very different relationship to the earth no longer have to exist in close proximity to the Kogi to cause the Kogi people distress and damage because environmental degradation in the lowlands has impact on the highlands where the Kogi live.

How impressive is it that their Pattern Language – their awareness of the patterns and flows of energies through their environment and their teleconnections allowed them to know of climate change all the way back in the 90’s when it took hundreds of years and man hours and studies and models to figure out the same thing for the oh, so brilliant Modern Man?

I keep saying to people here and elsewhere, there are other ways of knowing and this is exactly what I am talking about.

It’s a different subject, but I wondered about gender roles and authority within the Kogi people. The Aluna movie featured a lot of Kogi spokespersons and it seemed like they were almost exclusively men.

Yes. They are unusually hierarchical for an intact indigenous group… until one remembers they have not always been isolated. They were co-existant with the Aztecs as the Tairona, of which two other similar and related bands exist in the same area as the Kogi. The were monumental builders, though to a far less extent than the Aztec. Still, they had they knowledge and created sophisticated architecture in the form of platforms for dwellings and extensive stone pathways that appear to function perfectly to this day with apparently no upkeep. That takes excellent engineering and ecological knowledge and skill. Would the Kogi still be the Kogi if the Spanish had not arrived or if they had not isolated themselves to stay alive? Hard to know.

I am grateful that Killian prompted me to look at this topic.

And I am glad the worth of this type of knowledge is being taken more seriously here and elsewhere. I consider it fundamentally necessary to our survival as a society, if not as a species.

It’s too bad that Killian’s communication habits are so nasty

The violence of this cannot be overstated, nor the hypocrisy. This issue is blowing up again because you keep mentioning it. You watch multiple other people on this forum be rude, insulting, etc., and never say a word. What is it, mike, that makes me special so that only my behavior affects you? And how is it you don’t understand the violence of needlessly, in a fully decontextualized way, like this post I am referring to, calling my habits nasty? I will say it again: This is hypocrisy.

because I think he does some ideas to share that are helpful, but it’s hard to do much with him because he is so intemperate.

And it is hard to do much with a milquetoast who champions Politically Correct speech, but do I ever mention it, mike? No. It is who you are. You bring what you bring. So long as you do not lie about what I say or say something offensive about me, others or important concepts that need discussing, what does your manner or style matter? It does not. I do not hold you against you. Same with everyone else. Lie, say something offensive, one will hear from me. Otherwise, they will not.

E.g., what Zebra said was racist. There is no denying that. Should Zebra walk it back and demonstrate some awareness, I will be happy to acknowledge that, but how am I wrong for calling it out? Because I didn’t use your style? Because I am not giving the benefit of the doubt to clear racist tropes? You have your way, I have mine, but only one of the two of us is judgmental about it.

I have repeatedly pointed out the fallacy – the utter stupidity – of saying, “Well, he might have answers we need, but I don’t like him, so let’s all just curl up and die, instead.”

You have a rather low tolerance for individual differences. Read this (again?):

To Killian: if you want to increase your influence and impact

Not in the slightest. That is not my job. Schmidt does climate science. He does not do regenerative systems nor whole systems solutions for climate.

BPL does physics and bile. It’s what he does.

Mal does climate science gatekeeping, trying to keep the discussions bound by the known and cautioning against the more speculative and/or long-tail aspects of the science. Scientific Reticence is his thing.

In another universe I might be considered a futurist or “thought leader.” I have developed concepts no other person has that demonstrably harmonize the solution set to solve all facets of our problems within the bounds of Nature itself. There is a bridge between the world of the Kogi, et al., and the modern world available. It is comprehensive, it is unique and only one person brought the various elements together to create a universally applicable model to solve our crises. That’s what I do. Concepts. Ideas. Analysis. Insight. Patterns. Solutions.

I do not do outreach. I do not do ego-stroking. I do not suffer fools, unlike you. We each have our roles and our preferences.

Quite simply , it is not my job to take the concept to the world. I’ve done my part. I have provided a viable model. It is up to those who have voices to be heard to do the work to understand the model then spread it.

So, no, I don’t give the slightest damn about being the face of a movement, I am merely looking for those who could be. But those people are not people who can be dissuaded by such a petty, small thing as a personality. If my style is more important to them than the solutions, then they are not people who are strong enough to carry the weight of the message.

I suggest that you refrain from attacking folks and calling them racists

See something, say something.

when they have questions and don’t fully understand the point(s) you are trying to get across.

Zebra understood exactly what they were saying. You giving the benefit of the doubt is about what is in your head, not what is in their words.

Should I be judging you and calling you out for *not* stating the obvious? From my perspective, yes. But I didn’t. It’s up to you to do you. That’s ethics.

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